Servicing the lock - to do - or not to do . . . that is the question !

Can't seem to find anything which tells how to service the locking system on any antique combination lock or door hinges, bolts and latch system.

I've taken a peek inside the back of the combination lock panel and can see where any previous grease had long since melted and run down the back of the panel.

Any thoughs on how to service these areas?

Also, I'm thinking I might rebuild my safe to include an extra drawer or two, and an extra pair of lock boxes - any idea where I might find the keys and locks for such items?

Thanks a bunch!
Rog

Hi Rog,
As far as servicing antique locks or modern locks are concerned I have worked on many.
The only thing that I use is WD40. I first strip down the lock to component form, then clean all parts. Re-assemble and lubricate with the spray. Wipe off access spillage.
WD40 cleans and lubricates. If you use grease, it attracts dust and dirt and it ends up as a sticky paste which clogs everything up. Give it a go and see what you think.

WD40, is NOT the correct lubricant. Yes it's ok for a degreaser & cleaning agent, but as a service product, this should not be used.

Ok, why not?

WD40, will when dried out , ie in a centrally heated environment for one, dry to a powder finish, which then clogs up AND, it will form into an abrasive eventually causing wear & tear to the product.

If WD40 was the messiah of lubricants, then why do manufacturers use specific grease viscocities on their goods?

Clean with it by all means, then re-grease.

Seeples innit. :(clap):

Regards
Russell

Withy Grove (Leeds) Ltd
t: 044 (0)113 2721441
www.wgsafesonline.com

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Timbo

Hi Rog,
As far as servicing antique locks or modern locks are concerned I have worked on many.
The only thing that I use is WD40. I first strip down the lock to component form, then clean all parts. Re-assemble and lubricate with the spray. Wipe off access spillage.
WD40 cleans and lubricates. If you use grease, it attracts dust and dirt and it ends up as a sticky paste which clogs everything up. Give it a go and see what you think.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Russell Stoner

WD40, is NOT the correct lubricant. Yes it's ok for a degreaser & cleaning agent, but as a service product, this should not be used.

Ok, why not?

WD40, will when dried out , ie in a centrally heated environment for one, dry to a powder finish, which then clogs up AND, it will form into an abrasive eventually causing wear & tear to the product.

If WD40 was the messiah of lubricants, then why do manufacturers use specific grease viscocities on their goods?

Clean with it by all means, then re-grease.

Seeples innit. :(clap):

Regards
Russell

Withy Grove (Leeds) Ltd
t: 044 (0)113 2721441
www.wgsafesonline.com

---

I have a bit of "old" vaseline/graphite grease, which is what was used on old phonograph gearing - so I'm thinking that since it is basically from the same era that this might be a good choice = yes or no ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rog

I have a bit of "old" vaseline/graphite grease, which is what was used on old phonograph gearing - so I'm thinking that since it is basically from the same era that this might be a good choice = yes or no ?

---

I recommend Super Lube synthetic grease with Teflon.
(note-I tried to post an image several times but "Upload failed due to failure writing temporary file").

Pete Schifferli

Blimey!!!! Who ever in their tiny minds decided to add graphite to grease.

Graphite is a naturally occurring product, generally, it is a fine powdered rock.. Guess what!!
Its an abrasive product, and thus should not be used on a locking devise.

Back to WD40 to de-grease n clean, low viscoss grease for locks, heavier viscoss for safe mechanics.

Hoping this clears up this little theme.

Remember, even John Travolta sang about the benifits of Grease.

Regards
Russell
Withy Grove (Leeds) Ltd
t: 0113 2721441
www.wgsafesonline.com
:(punch):

Russell, here in the States, super fine graphite powdered has been used for years in pin tumbler locks. It is not as popular today as when I started, but back then my boss referred to it as black magic. This is not the same as found in hardware stores. All too often it is over applied in locks and will compact, causing problems. But properly applied it works great as a lube. Graphite is not as hard as brass therefore it doesn't damage the lock. Not that I ever saw at least. When Medeco first came out, powdered graphite was not recommended as a lube. I suspect it was feared that it was too easy to over apply and would therefore cause problems in their locks. But in standard pin tumblers it remains my personal choice. It is rarely used in safe combination locks but that doesn't mean it won't work there as well. But the proper application of lubricants (what, where and how much) is important. And I agree that WD 40 should not be considered as a lubricant for any lengthy period of time. Short term only in a pinch. Doug

I am with Doug on the lube.

WD 40 stands for Water Displacement Formula 40 and was made to keep missile parts from rusting. It was not designed as a lube. It was just that everyone that worked in the plants took it home and used it for that.... and the following grew.

As for DIY of safe lock servicing:

1] Take lock apart taking pictures as you go so you KNOW how each part was before you took it off.
2] Clean all parts with a agent that will not harm them but will remove all grease, dirt and grime. It should be an agent that dries in a very short time but doesn't leave a trace of itself.
3] Any bolt part on part movement is the location to where you are going to use a lithium or other really good quality (safe lubes are available) light grease in very small amounts. This would be just enough to see it but not enough to move on its own with gravity.
4] Any dial or wheel pack part you should apply the grease to your finger then rub between two fingers and then wipe just a bit to the part on part movement so you can feel it and see a sheen.

If the lock is in use (several times a day or more) then the lock should be serviced at least once a year. If the lock is only used every week or two (as it should be with a safe of this age and lack of parts) should be serviced once every decade or decade and a half. Servicing might damage/distort (rings, keepers, ect) parts if someone that doesn't do it often preforms the work. Go slow and careful.

My preferred lube is Lock Saver lube and grease.
http://www.lock-saver.com/

---------- Post added at 06:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:42 AM ----------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rog

Also, I'm thinking I might rebuild my safe to include an extra drawer or two, and an extra pair of lock boxes - any idea where I might find the keys and locks for such items?

---

Depending on one point here. Do you want a lock that looks and works like those you have or does it mater if it is a more modern lock? If you want like ones you have might be a problem as I don't know of any that are made here or imported. Flat steel locks and keys have gone away as far as I can tell. Now you can still trip over them on ebay and might find enough for your project.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Halflock

I am with Doug on the lube.

WD 40 stands for Water Displacement Formula 40 and was made to keep missile parts from rusting. It was not designed as a lube. It was just that everyone that worked in the plants took it home and used it for that.... and the following grew.

As for DIY of safe lock servicing:

1] Take lock apart taking pictures as you go so you KNOW how each part was before you took it off.
2] Clean all parts with a agent that will not harm them but will remove all grease, dirt and grime. It should be an agent that dries in a very short time but doesn't leave a trace of itself.
3] Any bolt part on part movement is the location to where you are going to use a lithium or other really good quality (safe lubes are available) light grease in very small amounts. This would be just enough to see it but not enough to move on its own with gravity.
4] Any dial or wheel pack part you should apply the grease to your finger then rub between two fingers and then wipe just a bit to the part on part movement so you can feel it and see a sheen.

If the lock is in use (several times a day or more) then the lock should be serviced at least once a year. If the lock is only used every week or two (as it should be with a safe of this age and lack of parts) should be serviced once every decade or decade and a half. Servicing might damage/distort (rings, keepers, ect) parts if someone that doesn't do it often preforms the work. Go slow and careful.

My preferred lube is Lock Saver lube and grease.
LOCK SAVER

---------- Post added at 06:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:42 AM ----------



Depending on one point here. Do you want a lock that looks and works like those you have or does it mater if it is a more modern lock? If you want like ones you have might be a problem as I don't know of any that are made here or imported. Flat steel locks and keys have gone away as far as I can tell. Now you can still trip over them on ebay and might find enough for your project.

---

Thanks for all this useful information...

I should state that the dial/lock mechanisms seem to work extremely smooth in their current condition.

But I'll definitely treat things gently!

I know S&G used to specify a GE Versilube lubricating grease on their safe locks but have lately swiched allegiance to a similar Shell Petroleum product. GE seems to have sold off that division to a company called Novaguard and their Versilube is what I have been using for quite a few years. It is not as pertinent to a flat key lock but should work well to lubricate the sliding mechanism of the bolt and less is more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jacobrules

I know S&G used to specify a GE Versilube lubricating grease on their safe locks but have lately swiched allegiance to a similar Shell Petroleum product. GE seems to have sold off that division to a company called Novaguard and their Versilube is what I have been using for quite a few years. It is not as pertinent to a flat key lock but should work well to lubricate the sliding mechanism of the bolt and less is more.

---

Did a quick search for Novagard Versilube and it appears that there are several versions available of this not so inexpensive lubricant - but, I guess I'll have to break down and get me some of this good stuff. Pretty sure it will come in handy for other projects as well . . . . .

I also agree that WD-40 is great for removing grease, and is a degreaser. It's great for freeing up rusty tools. I think any dry lube would be better then grease for an antique safe if it not being used frequently, or better yet, not putting anything on might be even better. I would think you would not want to do a yearly service on the mechanism and cause more wear on the screws and paint, like you would do on a safe being used daily. Any lubes that stay wet cause problems with dirt sticking. I scraped off hard chunks of the original grease from my safe, which wasn't doing anything positive, and now it works much smoother then it did before. And I might go in it once a month, so I don't see anything wearing out in my lifetime. (That's about 200 years)

One thing I did that I think is important. I put a drop of oil on the screw threads before screwing them back in. Especially where they are tapped in sheet metal, I found they tend to rust more in those places.

There seems to be a lot of different opinions on the cleaning and lubrication topic.
All I can go by is from my personal experience.
I have taken a lot of old safe locks apart due to difficulties unlocking. The most common fault apart from a mechanical /wear problem that I have found is old grease. I have taken old Milner and Chatwood locks apart to find that the grease inside has hardened to form a very sticky paste, thus dragging on levers and bolt. I don't know if this was put in at the time of manufacture or added at a later date, but some of the grease that I have found inside locks has turned a horrible green colour and set really hard.
So I think whatever your view, everyone has their own opinions I guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rog

Did a quick search for Novagard Versilube and it appears that there are several versions available of this not so inexpensive lubricant. . . . .

---

S&G specifically recommended Novagard G322L Versilube, or Dow Corning Gn Metal Assembly Paste. They currently recommend Shell Aeroshell 22. But one of their requirements is that it must not cause shape/dimension changes in plastic wheels; not a concern on antique locks.

Did Mosler have any recommendations? Does Diebold/LaGard?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Timbo

There seems to be a lot of different opinions on the cleaning and lubrication topic.
All I can go by is from my personal experience.
I have taken a lot of old safe locks apart due to difficulties unlocking. The most common fault apart from a mechanical /wear problem that I have found is old grease. I have taken old Milner and Chatwood locks apart to find that the grease inside has hardened to form a very sticky paste, thus dragging on levers and bolt. I don't know if this was put in at the time of manufacture or added at a later date, but some of the grease that I have found inside locks has turned a horrible green colour and set really hard.
So I think whatever your view, everyone has their own opinions I guess.

---

It is for this very reason that techs now only put on just a bit between moving parts. A good Synthetic grease will not break down near as fast as the older grease and even in a sheen smear (few thousands at most) it will not cause a whole lot of problems over time even if nobody did anything else.

I have asked our HoL librarian volunteers to put a couple of documents relating to the Manifoil rebuild lubrication instruction No. 35. into the public on-line library. Bear in mind that the lock would have been completely striped and ultrasonically cleaned. If you don’t already have a password and login for the HoL site email at the prompt. http://historyoflocks.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1255

Thanks Brian,
Looks like grease and WD40 both have their place in the servicing of various locks.
Tim

Talking about a Shell Petroleum product, I have used Vaseline when servicing safe moving parts, eg Espagnolette boltwork, follower & spindle.

It has a nice viscocity, not too thick nor runny. It's also good on chapped lips!!

Any further comments?

Regards
Russell

Withy Grove (Leeds) Ltd
t: 044 (0)113 2721441
www.wgsafesonline.com:(clap):

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jacobrules

I know S&G used to specify a GE Versilube lubricating grease on their safe locks but have lately swiched allegiance to a similar Shell Petroleum product. GE seems to have sold off that division to a company called Novaguard and their Versilube is what I have been using for quite a few years. It is not as pertinent to a flat key lock but should work well to lubricate the sliding mechanism of the bolt and less is more.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brian Morland

I have asked our HoL librarian volunteers to put a couple of documents relating to the Manifoil rebuild lubrication instruction No. 35. into the public on-line library.

---

Clearly, two pages from a larger document; is there any chance the entire document could be scanned and added to the library?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wylk

Clearly, two pages from a larger document; is there any chance the entire document could be scanned and added to the library?

---

I simply added another reference to the topic of this thread which I felt was useful. I’d be a little uncomfortable making the whole document public without permission as technically it’s still under copyright, but will check. I’m sure these locks are going to be sought after collectors’ items of the future.

I was once advised to clean and lubricate with silicone (spray) polish. Worked really well on S & G. No residue and everything as slippery as a snake in grass.

Silicone polish? That's a new one to me and I have used a lot of different lubes. I will remember that one. However there is a certain minimum amount of friction desired on the wheel post of a combination lock. Usually there is too much but once in a while I run across a lock that has too little, resulting in wheel walk or run on, if you prefer. This is where a wheel keeps moving after the dial is stopped. Dialing more slowly prevents this and since fast dialing is by far the leading cause of problems with combination locks, I often solve the problem by doing nothing other than recommending slower dialing. But in the rare extreme cases I will apply a lube to actually slow down a wheel so it stops where it is placed. Doug

So that why lock designers put an adjustable tension component in modern locks? So that this problem can be adjusted? I have always wondered about what that was for. Never work on them that much.:8):

I've always wondered about the S&G adjustable-torque locks. One impression is that this was required by the DOD to meet mil specs (e.g. to resist a vibration attack) but I can't remember where I read that. To do this properly you'd need a torque meter, a collection of clamps for all of their various dial shapes, and clear instructions (e.g. measure the torque with just the drive cam moving, or all three wheels moving).

Does anybody else (Mosler, Diebold, La Gard, ...) have a torque adjuster? I don't recall seeing this outside of Sargent & Greenleaf.

FWIW the patent is US 4,163,376 (1979).

I've never seen the adjusting kit in S&G literature and after watching eBay for many years I've only seen a kit for sale once. This tells me hardly anybody uses the adjusting feature and those who do probably just do it by feel. Another solution in search of a problem?

I know that S&G and Lagard do have them from the few times I have serviced some Group 2 locks.

The wheels are balanced against vibration attacks. I don't know why S&G started using the adjuster since their earlier model worked fine. S&G is the only one who used it and they are easily used by feel and sight, once an appreciation of the necessary friction is known. The existence of the kit was probably directed more toward the military and specifically for the Gr. 1 locks, where typically less experienced personnel are performing the work. Doug

Isnt it just that they are more reliably dialled in real life, if there is a sensible small amount of friction on the wheels?

I assume you are talking about motor skills, which can be a consideration. But there is more to it than that. There are two different areas of concern here, the wheels moving on the wheel post and the combined bearing surfaces of the both the dial/dial ring and the drive cam in the wheel post. If wheel walk wasn't a factor, the best situation would be no friction of the wheels on the post therefor no wear would occur there. But no friction would result in constant wheel walk so there must be some friction to prevent it. Regarding the dial and drive cam, again if there were no friction there would be no wear on these parts. There is a conflict between the moving parts of the dial and drive cam coming into contact with the stationary wheels. Imagine a fast freewheeling dial hitting against a wheel pack with too much friction. The little drive pins and wheel flys are easily abused. Increasing the friction on the dial bearing surfaces will slow down the dial but you would also want to decrease the wheel pack friction. Fast dialing is always considered bad practice but there should be a balance of sorts between the friction of the dial to the friction on the wheel pack. A small sensible amount as you say.

I forgot the importance of ensuring the free movement of the fly on each wheel. The friction here has to be less than that of the wheel on the post or the wheel will mis-align.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Russell Stoner

WD40, is NOT the correct lubricant. Yes it's ok for a degreaser & cleaning agent, but as a service product, this should not be used.

Ok, why not?

WD40, will when dried out , ie in a centrally heated environment for one, dry to a powder finish, which then clogs up AND, it will form into an abrasive eventually causing wear & tear to the product.

If WD40 was the messiah of lubricants, then why do manufacturers use specific grease viscocities on their goods?

Clean with it by all means, then re-grease.

Seeples innit. :(clap):

Regards
Russell

Withy Grove (Leeds) Ltd
t: 044 (0)113 2721441
www.wgsafesonline.com

---

This guy is correct. I have cleaned, and srviced, more locks than ever necessary due to them being "serviced" with WD-40. It's a dirt magnet, and not made for lubrication. WD40 actually stands for W-ater D-isplacement formula #40. It's not a lubricant.

This is very interesting - - - especially inlight of this website:
WD-40 Frequently Asked Questions
How is WD-40 different from 3-IN-ONE®?

WD-40 is the ultimate multi-purpose problem solver. WD-40 cleans/degreases, penetrates to loosen up stuck parts, prevents corrosion and is a light lubricant. 3-IN-ONE, with it's special drip spout, enables you to lubricate without any overspray or splatter. 3-IN-ONE is ideal to use on tools, rollers, hinges, in-line skates, wheels...nearly everything that moves.http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...98156png-1.jpg

It's best to use a silicone based spray lubricant, or dry graphite. If I wanted you to buy my product, WD-41, I'd tell you the same thing.

Has anyone tried this product, and if so what has been your experience???

http://www.antique-locks.com/clear.gif

And to think we could be discussing who does the best version of "And the band played waltzing Matilda".

I much prefer -
Eric Bogle
Eric Bogle - The Band Played Waltzing Matilda - YouTube
but
Joan Baez does it well too
Joan Baez - And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda - YouTube

oh ya, that's a lock!

Rog, thank you for the selections. Eric I am not familiar with but Joan I am . Never heard either version. i will have to listen to both before making a judgement. Doug

---------- Post added at 10:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 PM ----------

Thank you Rog. I only "heard" the song fairly recently by the Pogues and never knew its origin. The saddest song I have ever heard. Doug