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  1. #1

    Default Yale Model No: 1 c.1880. Double Pin-Dial Time Lock

    I have a Yale Model No: 1 c.1880. Double Pin-Dial Time Lock that we removed from bank safe in West Virginia. The safe remains in my late grandfather's former home (as it was installed when he built the house and would require demolition to remove it!) but I have the lock which is in excellent condition.

    As I am not a collector (though I appreciate the artistry and craftsmanship) I am curious as to whether there is any market for these locks. While I would guess they are *fairly* rare (I read on Mark Frank's site that there are more than 400 still around) I have no idea if there is enough of a market to make them valuable or if everyone who wants one for their collection already has one.

    The movement is number 1842. I did not note a case number though I forgot to examine the inside of the door. I do not have the key, so the only way to access the interior of the case is to remove the four screws securing the hinges of the door.

    The movement is in excellent condition, the case less so -- not bad really, just not shiny clean. The case is still mounted to the really, really heavy steel backing plate as it appears that to remove it one must remove the workings of the lock. As I don't really trust my skills in this area, I opted to not even try.

    Any feedback would be welcome. My email is eperrine[at]gmail[dot]com (don't know if that will defeat the harvesters these days, but one does what one can). I have included a couple of photos below. More photos at their full 3456 x 2592 resolution may be seen at http://www.nettally.com/YaleTimeLock/.
    Thanks for your time.

    --- Ed in Tallahassee, FL

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Yale Model No: 1 c.1880. Double Pin-Dial Time Lock

    Hi

    Nice lock.

    The picture of the case is a little unclear, the decoration should be like this one :

    http://antique-locks.com/showthread.php?t=82

    A few points to clarify

    1 - Do the movements run ?

    2 - The condition of the case ?

    Certainly there is a market, and it does have a value. Like all things that will have been affected by the recent financial turmoil.

    If you could clarify the case condition and whether the movements are running or not ...

  3. #3

    Default Re: Yale Model No: 1 c.1880. Double Pin-Dial Time Lock

    Both movements run and keep pretty good time. I haven't tested them in several years, but we ran them when the unit was still in the safe and they were quite accurate.

    The case is definitely different from the other example you linked to. It is a "swirled" finish similar to the finish on the top interior plate (behind the mechanism which actually controls whether the draw bars can be opened) in your example. And in this lock, that plate (top, interior) has a diamond pattern similar to that of the case front of your example. Also, note the glass on my case is etched with "YALE LOCK M'F'G CO." across the top 'arch' of the glass. Further, the flat plate at the upper right interior where the example has patent information is blank

    The exterior case has minor damage around the key entryway and the top is a bit soiled. I *suspect* some standard metal polish would clean it right up but I don't know that for sure and don't want to do anything stupid that would impact the value. I know that cleaning coins is a "very bad thing" and don't know to what extent that philosophy applies here. There is *NO* damage to the case.

    If I can provide additional info, just let me know.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Yale Model No: 1 c.1880. Double Pin-Dial Time Lock

    So on the positive side we have :

    + Movements work fine
    + Glass is original (important ! - protect the glass)
    + Both winding eyelets intact in glass

    On the negative (note, not really negative - but they may reduce it's value to a serious collector)

    - It's the 'standard model' (72 hr, no day of the week attachment) this is not a major flaw by any means, the other versions are just more sought after.
    - Patent plate is blank - Thats odd, the movement number is high enough that the plate should be marked, whether it has been replaced etc is anyones guess.
    - The case finish is not original (This is the major problem - and it can't be fixed) at some point the external finish has suffered and been changed, It does happen as the finish is not that durable over time.
    - The door key is missing - not a major problem.

    The relatively high survival rate of this model does mean that many collectors have examples already.

    Before the onset of the financial mess I have seen mint, perfect examples sell for $2,000 or more. Given your example and the current market conditions I would guess at a market price of $500 - $800 or so. It may well do much better on ebay for example. Should you decide to sell you can of course list it here free of charge or post links to an ebay auction.

    I have one already so it's not of interest to me, but there was someone who posted on the site looking for one a while back, no idea whether or not he found one but a quick search should locate his post.

    Good luck with whatever course you decide to follow.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Yale Model No: 1 c.1880. Double Pin-Dial Time Lock

    Thank you very much for your input.

    Given that i haven't seen any other photo examples with the heavy steel mounting plate that adorns mine, I have to wonder if perhaps a custom case was created for an existing movement.

    The installation was on an interior vault door where it was 'suspended' on door framing members using the backing plate. There are three very large bolts (1/2" or so) that originate inside the case and connect it to threaded holes in the backing plate. Other photos I have seen had the cases almost recessed into the doors.

    Knowing that the case is not original, I am wondering about:

    a) removing the movement to allow me to remove the backing plate; and
    b) cleaning the case.

    I recognize that the cleaning won't enhance the value, but it will improve aesthetics and it doesn't seem that it can hurt the value if the case is not original.

    But just how easy is it to remove the movement? I am far from mechanically inept, but I also recognize my limitations. I have no fear of a process that requires that I carefully document the steps I take in order to reverse them, but if there's a step where springs are gonna' fly all over the room, I will pass!

    Also, there is thin rod (3/32" diameter or so) that spans the case interior and holds the dial pointers. Is that typical? It is either welded/soldered/brazed or it's a spring fit. If it's the former, I would have to break the welds to remove it and I am not going there.

    I believe that I will wait a few days before doing anything drastic like posting on eBay. I was hoping for low four-figures (which in better times and with an original case, proves to not be unreasonable) but really have to think hard about selling it for under $1000. In my mind that's the "it's worth that looking cool sitting on my shelf/mantle" number. <grin>

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Yale Model No: 1 c.1880. Double Pin-Dial Time Lock

    I think you can discount a custom case, I had a steel mounting plate for mine too.

    To remove the movements :

    1 - The horizontal bar with the two pointed time indicators, gently flex it and it will come out of it's two locating points.

    2 - Undo the screw to the right on the main arm pivot screw, then the arm with the two spring loaded wheels comes out.

    3 - Undo the two small blued screws on the two part arm that engaged with the reserve time indicators and remove them.

    4 - Then undo the three movement retaining screws (with knurled heads).

    I would suggest using screwdrivers in all cases that fit the screws well as if you slip you can damage the screw / finish on the screw.

    If any of this is unclear let me know and I'll do some pictures later.

    As to the price, I would tend to agree with you, if you don't need to sell it hold out for what you would want under ideal circumstances or wait for the market to improve.

    Personally I would leave the case as you found it.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Yale Model No: 1 c.1880. Double Pin-Dial Time Lock

    Thanks for the info... The instructions are pretty clear and I don't *think* I will need any pictures.

    When you say leave the case as I found it, are you referring to removing the backing plate, or cleaning it?

    The main reason for removing the plate is to make it possible to display the lock. As is, it can only lay flat. The large projection at the bottom precludes sitting it on anything. I would have to mount it to a vertical surface (and use some big honkin' screws into studs to make sure it didn't fall on anyone -- the darn thing would kill one of my kids. For that matter, if it fell on my head it would likely kill me!

    As to cleaning... Do you think it would impact the value? I am leaning more towards display at this point, and the top is a bit grungy as the pictures illustrate. I don't mind giving up 5% of the value (in the long term) for a more pleasing display piece. I don't plan on scrubbing it with Comet cleanser (do they still make Comet cleanser?) but just a cleanup with a very mild polish to remove accumulate grime.

    You have been very kind with your assistance. While I don't think I am likely to become a serious collector (just not in my budget to collect items in this price range!) it is nice to see the camaraderie and support that exists here.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Yale Model No: 1 c.1880. Double Pin-Dial Time Lock

    Removing the backplate is fine, as is cleaning to remove grunge and grime. I would advise keeping the plate and the screws for the future though.

    The word cleaning covers a multiple of extremes, from wiping down with clean water to having something bead blasted :!: So I tend to be over cautious as it means different things to different people !

    So, the level of cleaning in a mild removal of dirt & grunge with a mild polish will do no harm to the case, especially when the original finish has already been compromised.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Yale Model No: 1 c.1880. Double Pin-Dial Time Lock

    One further thought occurs, but I will not speculate yet. Can you confirm the number on the case ?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Yale Model No: 1 c.1880. Double Pin-Dial Time Lock

    To the best that I can determine, there in no number on the case itself. The only number is the 1842 on the movement at the lower right-hand corner (to the right of the E. Howard logotype arching over the bottom center knurled screw).

    Where would the case number normally be found? Perhaps I am simply overlooking something obvious.

    Also, I have failed to mention that the case has a hinge along the left side. The mounting was via the hinge at the left and the two 'ears' of the heavy backing plate -- one at the upper right (just a short 'ear' projecting out to the right) and one at the bottom right (much longer, projecting down).

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