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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    10
    Country: United States

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercury View Post
    As I see it, a 6 lever lock with 6 possible notch locations on a lever would mean 6x6x6x6x6x6=46,656 differs, assuming there are no other restrictions upon the key space.

    ...Mark
    I don't understand that. Looking at the key there are 6 unique positions (assuming the entrance slot acts as warding so the key can not be used up side down) and for each of those positions 6 possible depths of cut for a total key space of 36 possible keys.

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercury View Post
    As I see it, a 6 lever lock with 6 possible notch locations on a lever would mean 6x6x6x6x6x6=46,656 differs, assuming there are no other restrictions upon the key space.

    ...Mark
    Well, I don't know what I was thinking before, you are absolutely right. The full potential for the 6 lever lock is 46,656. The actual changes will be somewhat less, probably around 20% because the key can be reversed and you wouldn't want 6 1's, or 2's, etc.
    BBE.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    71
    Country: Australia

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    Quote Originally Posted by brookeclarke View Post
    I don't understand that. Looking at the key there are 6 unique positions (assuming the entrance slot acts as warding so the key can not be used up side down) and for each of those positions 6 possible depths of cut for a total key space of 36 possible keys.
    Consider a key for a lock with just two levers, with 6 possible cut depths.

    For each of the 6 possible cuts for the first position, there are 6 possible cuts for the second position. This gives 6x6=36 differs which could be represented as follows :

    1,1 1,2 1,3 1,4 1,5 1,6
    2,1 2,2 2,3 2,4 2,5 2,6
    3,1 3,2 3,3 3,4 3,5 3,6
    4,1 4,2 4,3 4,4 4,5 4,6
    5,1 5,2 5,3 5,4 5,5 5,6
    6,1 6,2 6,3 6,4 6,5 6,6

    For a key with three levers, 6 possible depths, we can take the 36 possible two lever keys and multiply by 6 for each possible cut for lever 3. Therefore there are 6x6x6=216 possible keys.

    The same logic gives us 6x6x6x6=1296 possible keys for a 4 lever lock, 6x6x6x6x6 for a 5 lever lock and 6x6x6x6x6x6 for a 6 lever lock.

    As BBE explained, not all of these theoretical differs will be used for various reasons.

    I hope that clarified this and not made it more confusing instead!


    ...Mark

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    10
    Country: United States

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    Hi Mark:

    I don't see it. What are the numbers in the table?
    1,1 1,2 1,3 1,4 1,5 1,6
    2,1 2,2 2,3 2,4 2,5 2,6
    3,1 3,2 3,3 3,4 3,5 3,6
    4,1 4,2 4,3 4,4 4,5 4,6
    5,1 5,2 5,3 5,4 5,5 5,6
    6,1 6,2 6,3 6,4 6,5 6,6

    You show the first number AND the second number ranging between 1 and 6. It seems to me that if the first number is the wafer/lever and the second number is the cut on that wafer/lever then the table represents the 36 possible keys for a 6-lever lock.

    Another way to look at it is when assembling a lock you can choose from 6 different levers for the first position, then again you choose from 6 different levers for the second position, and so on with only 36 possible ways to assembly the lock.

    Have Fun,

    Brooke

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    71
    Country: Australia

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    Quote Originally Posted by brookeclarke View Post
    Hi Mark:

    You show the first number AND the second number ranging between 1 and 6. It seems to me that if the first number is the wafer/lever and the second number is the cut on that wafer/lever then the table represents the 36 possible keys for a 6-lever lock.

    Another way to look at it is when assembling a lock you can choose from 6 different levers for the first position, then again you choose from 6 different levers for the second position, and so on with only 36 possible ways to assembly the lock.

    Have Fun,

    Brooke
    Each pair of numbers represents the cut depth for lever one and lever two as follows (depth for lever one, depth for lever two).

    So 1,1 means a cut depth of 1 for both levers.
    1,2 means cut depth 1 for lever one, cut depth 2 for lever two.
    4,6 means cut depth 4 for lever one, cut depth 6 for lever two.

    The list I made above represents all 36 possibilities for a two lever lock.

    ...Mark

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    418
    Country: United States

    Default Miller "Key Changes"

    Mark
    Just some question to ask. It is probable could have an "O" cut?......Timothy......

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by brookeclarke View Post
    Hi Mark:

    I don't see it. What are the numbers in the table?
    1,1 1,2 1,3 1,4 1,5 1,6
    2,1 2,2 2,3 2,4 2,5 2,6
    3,1 3,2 3,3 3,4 3,5 3,6
    4,1 4,2 4,3 4,4 4,5 4,6
    5,1 5,2 5,3 5,4 5,5 5,6
    6,1 6,2 6,3 6,4 6,5 6,6

    You show the first number AND the second number ranging between 1 and 6. It seems to me that if the first number is the wafer/lever and the second number is the cut on that wafer/lever then the table represents the 36 possible keys for a 6-lever lock.

    Another way to look at it is when assembling a lock you can choose from 6 different levers for the first position, then again you choose from 6 different levers for the second position, and so on with only 36 possible ways to assembly the lock.

    Have Fun,

    Brooke
    Mark has a good explanation below your post. The problem was that HTML removes extra spaces or tabs and makes tables sort of screwy looking. This illustrates it better.
    BBE.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2leverchart.jpg  

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    10
    Country: United States

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    Hi: What is the meaning of those numbers?
    It looks to be for 6 wafers/levers where each has 6 possible notches.

    Have Fun,

    Brooke

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    71
    Country: Australia

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brookeclarke View Post
    Hi: What is the meaning of those numbers?
    It looks to be for 6 wafers/levers where each has 6 possible notches.

    Have Fun,

    Brooke
    Each pair of numbers represents a key for a two lever lock that has 6 possible cut depths.

    The first number in each pair represents the cut depth for lever one. The second number in each pair represents the cut depth for the second lever.

    For example 4,6 would mean cut depth 4 for lever one and cut depth 6 for lever two.

    Six numbers would be needed to use this system to describe a 6 lever key.

    Thank you for making that table, BBE.

    ...Mark

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    10
    Country: United States

    Default

    Hi:

    I see. So the listed "key changes" for the Miller locks are not based on the number of possible different keys, but on something else.

    Have Fun,

    Brooke

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