Welcome to our world of Locks and Locksmiths (click logo or scroll down to view all):-
 www.Antique-Locks.com 
  
HoL
   COLTi
Or are you looking for modern, or recent past,
Keys, Locks or Safes.
keys, locks & safes
Industrial Archaeology of Locks HoL Museum
COLTi
  
Please support our forum sponsors where you can.
Researching locks from antiquity to the recent past.Maintaining a reference collection & archive.Today's scene and cutting edge developments.
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 24
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    10
    Country: United States

    Default Miller "Key Changes"

    Hi:

    This is my first post as a new member.

    I've been studying the 1905 and 1925 Miller catalogs from your web site. On the Champion 6-lever pdf page 32 of the 1905 catalog it mentioned "Unlimited Key Changes" but on the next page "Champion 4-lever" is says "120 key changes", then on pdf pg 34 "Empire 6-lever" is says "12 key changes". What are key changes?

    http://www.prc68.com/I/Locks.html#Lever_Pancake_Padlock

    Have Fun,

    Brooke

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Tonawanda, NY, USA
    Posts
    639
    Country: United States

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brookeclarke View Post
    Hi:
    What are key changes?
    Brooke
    The number of different keys that are available for a particular lock. I believe these are known as "differs" in the UK.

    The variations in the "bittings" of a key, and the corresponding variations in the tumblers or wards of the lock, are designated by the term "key changes". Thus, a cheap warded lock, having only four variations, is said to have four "key changes".*

    *
    from Yale & Towne Mfg. Co. Catalogue No. 26, (c)1929, pg. XXXII.

    Pete Schifferli

    note to BBE: perhaps this should be added to the LIST Council Locksmith Dictionary?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    10
    Country: United States

    Default

    Hi Pete:

    That's what I thought but seems to be inconsistent with my Miller Champion 6-lever lock which is listed as unlimited while the "Champion 4-lever" is "120 key changes", then on pdf pg 34 "Empire 6-lever" is "12 key changes".

    From what I've read the 6-lever locks have 6 levers and each lever can have up to 6 different notch locations. So it would seem that the maximum number of key changes can be 6 * 6 = 36. Maybe less if the key can be inserted upside down.

    Maybe the Champion 4-lever has 30 notch positions on each lever?

    I can see how the number of key changes can be less than the maximum possible, but don't see how there can be more than the maximum and "unlimited" seem way to many.

    Have Fun,

    Brooke

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    california
    Posts
    86
    Country: United States

    Default

    this is inside of an L&N railroad 6 leverClick image for larger version. 

Name:	CAM00628.jpg 
Views:	16 
Size:	385.0 KB 
ID:	17357this might be 16 changes

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brookeclarke View Post
    Hi Pete:

    That's what I thought but seems to be inconsistent with my Miller Champion 6-lever lock which is listed as unlimited while the "Champion 4-lever" is "120 key changes", then on pdf pg 34 "Empire 6-lever" is "12 key changes".

    From what I've read the 6-lever locks have 6 levers and each lever can have up to 6 different notch locations. So it would seem that the maximum number of key changes can be 6 * 6 = 36. Maybe less if the key can be inserted upside down.

    Maybe the Champion 4-lever has 30 notch positions on each lever?

    I can see how the number of key changes can be less than the maximum possible, but don't see how there can be more than the maximum and "unlimited" seem way to many.

    Have Fun,

    Brooke
    Obviously they were mathematically challenged, or they just lied. You are correct, 6 lever = 36 possibilities, 4 lever = 24 possibilities. It is entirely possible they limited the Empire to 12 possibilities.
    BBE.

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pschiffe View Post

    note to BBE: perhaps this should be added to the LIST Council Locksmith Dictionary?
    Thanks for noticing Pete. Many years ago it was in there, looks like some cut and paste may have gotten rid of it. I'll see if I have a printed version from the 80's, if not I have started the process to add it.
    BBE

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Tonawanda, NY, USA
    Posts
    639
    Country: United States

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BBE View Post
    Obviously they were mathematically challenged, or they just lied. You are correct, 6 lever = 36 possibilities, 4 lever = 24 possibilities. It is entirely possible they limited the Empire to 12 possibilities.
    BBE.
    Not all theoretical key changes may be manufactured for a number of technical reasons. These might included all identical cuts exposing the lock to being easily picked as well as too many deep cuts that could weaken the key. Thus the actual number of key changes is likely to be less than the theoretical number.

    Pete Schifferli

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    71
    Country: Australia

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brookeclarke View Post
    From what I've read the 6-lever locks have 6 levers and each lever can have up to 6 different notch locations. So it would seem that the maximum number of key changes can be 6 * 6 = 36.
    As I see it, a 6 lever lock with 6 possible notch locations on a lever would mean 6x6x6x6x6x6=46,656 differs, assuming there are no other restrictions upon the key space.

    ...Mark

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    california
    Posts
    86
    Country: United States

    Default

    also a friend told me his 4 lever champion had 5 levers,i took one apart and it did have 5 levers but worked with the 4 cut push key ?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    california
    Posts
    86
    Country: United States

    Default

    forgot to add i also have a 6 lever champion with only 2 of the levers having double cuts.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •